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(Continued from Part-1)

COL. RAM SINGH: Shankaranand ji gives a lot of support.

SHRI HARCHAND SINGH: Col. Sahib, you also give him a lot of support. I would certainly like to say that our Prime Minister is a man of very religious nature. When he went to Tirupati, everyone there was praising him. I had myself gone there. I saw that in Vishakapatanam one and a half people were assembled there to listen to him. Everyone was praising him. That is why I appeal to him with folded hands, Mr. Chairman, Sir, that 486 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat there is still time, you are the saviour of the poor, which is why you should provide reservation for Harijans and backward classes in the Rajya Sabha as well as in the Cabinet and in all the high courts. With these words, I thank you.

SHRI RAJESH KUMAR (Gaya): Mr. Chairman, Sir, there should be reservation in Rajya Sabha also. There is a provision to include the `Banjara' caste in the Constitution Amendment Bill, 1967 and I support this Bill. At the same time, I want to put certain suggestions before the Government for its consideration.

Today, the situation is that many castes are yet to be included in the list of the S.Cs and S.Ts. Not only in Uttar Pradesh, but in many other States of the country also, there are many castes which have not been included in the list of the S.Cs and S.Ts and their economic and social condition is quite miserable. Therefore, my suggestion is that where `Banjara' caste is included in it. some other castes like Nat, Sain, Keet in Hindus and Dhobi and Halkhor in Muslims, whose condition is thousand times worse than that of other castes included in the list of S.Cs should also be included in it. No matter if such people come from any region, any State or any village but they should be included in the list of SCs and STs. Although they deserve inclusion, they cannot make their demand for their rights properly. I make a suggestion to include all such castes.

Mr. Chairman, Sir, this is not the case of Uttar Pradesh alone. A large number of people have obtained fake certificates which show that they are members of SCs and STs in order to seek admission to several educational institutions and Engineering colleges or to participate in every field of education and to seek Government jobs or jobs in the Railway Department. In some cases, people have been elected to State Legislative Assemblies after obtaining such fake certificates.

Therefore, it is my request that a committee to examine these issues should be constituted. That committee should be a Parliamentary Committee to examine such cases minutely, not only in Uttar 487 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat [Sh. Rajesh Kumar] Pradesh, but all over the country and the act of such people is against the spirit of the Constitution. The Government and we should pay attention to it seriously. Secondly I want to say that amendments are being made to our Constitution every now and then, which are not needed. Amendment should be made only after examing the facts in detail. I do not appreciate the practice of making amendment every day. A thorough examination of such cases should throughout the country and only such persons should be included in the list to ensure that non SCs are not able to get themselves included in it and amendments are not needed every now and then.

Only those people should be included in the list of the SCs and STs who are socially and economically backward. They should also be provided opportunity to seek livelihood and lead life independently in their respective States and they should be provided all the facilities enjoyed by SCs and STs. This is my submission to the Government through you. Lastly, I want to point out that I support fully the Bill brought here with regard to giving facilities to Banjara caste. I think the Government should accept the suggestions that I have made. A comprehensive amendment should be made and a Parliamentary Committee constituted to examine the case in detail on village, district and State level. In this Committee the Members of the Parliament belonging to the S.Cs and the S.Ts should be included so that they can carry out probe fairly to decide as to which castes should be included in this list. I support this motion and express my thanks.

SHRI SANTOSH KUMAR GANGWAR (Bareilly): Mr. Speaker, Sir, I support the Bill moved by my colleague Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat. During the Ninth Lok Sabha and in the present Tenth Lok Sabha, such issue has been raised and assurance has always been given that the matter would be considered at length and a Bill introduced to 488 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat include all the castes that could not be included in this list. But it appears that which ever Government have been there, have not fulfilled their promise to include these castes.. It is the need of the hour to conduct a survey throughout the country and to gather information as to which caste should be included in which caste and then a Bill should be brought forward. Sir, the `Banjara' caste is also similar type of caste which should be taken in to account. I want to say something about one more caste of Uttar Pradesh about which I made a mention during the Ninth Lok Sabha also that the population of the "Bhurji" community in Uttar Pradesh is one lakh. From social, economic and every point of view the Bhurji community has close similarity to Scheduled Castes. These people are associated with the industries relating to gram, beaten paddy and rice. But in want of proper cooperation and support, this caste is also likely to vanish and its profession and art are also likely to vanish. In order to preserve the art of this caste and to provide proper encouragement to it, it is necessary that a thought should be given to it and this caste included in the list of Scheduled Castes.

For this purpose, I wrote letters also in my capacity as a member of the Ninth Lok Sabha and gave clear information of it that this caste comes under these rules. Therefore,it is my submission that this caste should be included in this list. In this regard I do not want to say more but I want to request that the Government should clear the backlog as it was said by Shri Sitaram Kesari that he would clear the backlog. I know well that the encouragement which should have been given to these castes during last 44 years, has not been given. We should dissolve our differences and give encouragement to these castes and a congenial atmosphere should be created so that all are equal in society. I would like to insist that this Bill is not related to a single caste only but it is related to the entire society. Today Government should assure the House through this Bill because the Government expressed its consent at the 489 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat time of consideration of the earlier Bill that it would take decision after due consideration to include the castes of the country that quality for their inclusion. I thank you for giving me opportunity to speak. [English]

SHRI S.B. SIDNAL(Belgaum): Thank you very much for this opportunity. I support this Bill. The Constitution of our country has aimed at creating a just society in this country. To achieve this, we have many programmes all round specially for SC & ST. The SC&ST in many of the States have found their place in reservation and in some of the States, they are deprived of it. How best we can do to help this community? Is it enough only that we go for reserving jobs for them in the Government or in other places or whether we can educate them totally and leave them to the general competition? Many a time if has been criticised; many a time disheartening things are appeared in every Press. Specially in the case of SC, so many things have been happening in the villages and even in the cities; their harassment and exploitation normally take place in the villages.

Now, how best we can come out of these things? Can we come out of these things by welfare schemes done by the Government or by other agencies? According to me, to get away from all these things and to bring up this community, is through education, to educate them,. The education is the universal cure for all the diseases that this backward and SC & ST people have. When they get education, naturally they are not bestowed with other general knowledge as the forward community people are. That is why reservation was made for them in the Constitution. The Constitution definitely provides all these things.

If we do not have reservation, they will not be taken in the jobs.

Many a time, the same age people learn in the same school may not be competent as the forward community people because the background of this forward community people is quite different from the SC&ST.

There, he is exposed to the better 490 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat world,better environment., better schooling, better education and good friends of that strata; here he is born in a dust, in poor conditions; and he does not have an atmosphere of studying nor can he has any exposure or any of the relations in the Government or in trade or anywhere. So, he has to be given a It. cushioning and lift by the Constitution; without giving any little or reservation to this class, they can never come up.

Many people say that all these 40 years we have given them reservation and now there is no need to give them further reservation.

According to me, it is not so, because even in the forward community in the rural area, there is no education; and they have not been properly exposed. What about these people who are economically, totally backward? Hardly not even one or two per cent have come up and they have taken jobs; and most of them, who have taken jobs like IAS or IPS or some other big jobs, they have not gone to their villages to get themselves involved in the rest of the community so that they can also come up; that is also one of the weaknesses of the society. Why does it happen? It happens because there they have been looked down because still in so many places the untouchability prevails, despite all the legislation., despite of our education and despite all the Leaders have spoken in the Parliament and outside the Parliament; still this system exists. How best we can come out of it?

It is only by reservation. Reservation does not mean being economically sound. The `people of this community should be trained.

How best can we train them? By education. Now, they are already in the schools. But most of them are missing. Nobody is attending because their parents are working as labourers and the children are left in the house; nobody is taking care. They have no food to cater to them. Nothing is there. So throughout the country we have to establish the Navodaya schools as the late Shri Rajiv Gandhi has suggested, and specially for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled tribes. Boys and girls of those 491 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat [Sh. S.B. Sidnal] classes have to be pulled out from their houses and put in the residential schools and prepared for till the XII the Class. Then only we can think of the social changes will make them economically better.

That economic attraction will be good and then they can get into a job, or a trade. They can get into so many avenues of life.

Now what has happened is in the Scheduled Castes and Tribes they goo only for jobs. It is not the only thing. It will of course improve their economy. it could bring little status for few people but it cannot improve en masse the whole Scheduled Castes and Tribes people.

Therefore, they should get involved into other avenues like trade, industry, or small jobs like electricians or mechanics. There are so many things which we have never done. In our private life we have seen so many institutions.

Technical education has to be inculcated to these communities.

Then, their services becomes inevitable. None of them are mechanics, Why? There are many other communities equally or perhaps poorer than these people. But they go for mechanic's jobs, they go for driver's job, and they go for other jobs, But none of these people go. I have seen that none of them are drivers, none of them are rickshaw pullers and none of them are car drivers., They do not want anything except Government job. So, they should be given separate training to take them out of that circle.

Suppose there is a Scheduled Caste person in village X, he opens a shop. Nobody will purchase from him. If he goes to a city or a big town he does well economically, or through some job. He can do well.

Why? Because there is still a social stigma still persisting in the minds of the people. That has been continuously with us. That is why the segregation has taken place, that is why the division has taken place. This has to be got over either through en mass education or helping them financially to build up their economy properly. Otherwise even for another century to come I do not think that 492 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat we can do justice to these communities only by providing a few jobs. I have seen many of the friends who get married to some other caste person and forget their own caste also. This has been another defect of these people. That has to be looked into very seriously from the social appoint of view. In case they do not want to marry, they segregate themselves from the rest of the community. That complex is there. Even when a boy comes to a school, he has a complex that he belongs to a Scheduled Caste or Tribe and that he is not that competent, that he cannot gather anything. That should go. How will it go? It is only by education.

There are many people who are led to the Devadasi system which is there in the Scheduled Castes. They go for prostitution. Why do they go in for prostitution? Why do they adopt such things? Ignorance, illiteracy and narrow approach and controlled by many goondas, they do it. These are all the things to be seen. When a girl is educated, when a boy is educated they cannot adopt to their study life. The Scheduled Tribes people, just like Banzara and other people, almost live in the forest. They have not seen the light of the day. They do not know anything. Many of them have not seen the train. Many of them have not seen the plane. They are so much backward. Definitely there is a wide gap between the rich and poor; educated and uneducated; urban and rural area in this country. We have two India. One is Bharat desh, where poor people live. The other is India where rich people and urban people live. When I go to my constituency by a flight, my brother comes to receive me in a car. That is the disparity we have developed in this country. That has to go. When will that go? Most of the people are Scheduled Castes, Scheduled Tribes and backward people. They are still backward. They have to be lifted and supported. Mere legislation would not do. It has to be done socially. All religious would not do.

It has too be done socially. All religious leaders have to come forth and help these communities and create have to come forth and help these communities and create one India, one community and one nation. 493 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat [English]

SHRI S.M. LALJAN BASHA(Guntur): Mr.Chairman, Sir, Bhagwan Shankar Rawat ji should have brought the Bill much earlier he has brought now.

However, it is a matter of pleasure that he has brought it now.

The people of Banjarja Community do not live a settled life, they do not own any house or anything, they roam from one place to another.

This Bill has been introduced for them, the House has supported it, so I express my gratitudes to the members. In Muslim Community there are some caste as washermen, butcher and mehtar. In other communities also there are many such castes. They also need inclusion as their plight is even worse. I do not hesitate in saying that their plight is even thousand times worse than that of Scheduled Castes and Scheduled tribes. I demand that all the backward classes should also be included in the list because they are so backward that they hardly get opportunities as they are less educated, so it is necessary to make arrangement for their education.

However, the Government spends crores of rupees for them but where does all this money go is not known. It is in my knowledge that the Congress people utilise this money released by Government to increase their force of supporters, to increase their power, to provide loan facilities to them, to allot homes to them. They have become quiet expert in those activities. A lot of Government money goes waste due to this. I make a demand that all the money meant for SCs and STs should be properly utilised. We should think over it and consider their reasonable demands and fulfill their demands properly.

I conclude while supporting this Bill. [Translation]

SHRI PREM CHAND RAM (Nawada): Mr. Chairman, Sir, I support the Constitution Amendment Bill related to Schedule Castes and Schedule tribes introduced by the hon. Member. On the other hand I express my feelings as I myself belong to Schedule caste 494 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.) Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat and represent a reserved Parliamentary Constituency. I have with me the experiences of my life. What treatment the society has meted out to us. Wee are facing difficulties in our long journey for the development of this caste as we have failed to cover the distance we ought to have covered by now. I think one fourth Members of Parliament belong to Schedule Caste and Schedule tribes and all of them are well aware of their respective lives. It is really very sad that nothing has been done for the social,political,educational upliftment of these castes even after 45 years of independence though constitutional provisions are there for the upliftment of the Schedule castes and Schedule tribes. This House represent the entire country. There is no place in the country which has been left unpresented. How far it is justified that despite pronouncements by all the leaders that there should be welfare of Scheduled Castes, no such welfare is taking place. Rather some harm is being done to these castes. The reality is that there is difference between the words and deeds the Government. I request that the benefits of all the welfare schemes meant for them must reach them. There are various schemes for their development in education, sports and health but cent percent benefits of not a single scheme reach them. Benefits are taken away by middle men. In a situation, such I think what is left now of the pacrosanct attitude adopted in the Constitution.

Mr. Chairman, Sir, hon. Welfare Minister is present in the House.

Jawahar Navodaya Vidyalayas have been opened in each district. The reservation provision is also there but the students, either girl or boy, who go there, are illtreated and it becomes difficult for them to stay there even for six months. I represent the Nawada Parliamentary Constituency. Two districts in my constituency are attached with that.

Incidentally there are two Navodaya Vidyalaya in my parliamentary constituency. One of them is there in Batari Banawa area of Nawada block. Several guardians of the student of that school came to me and told that the principal of that school molestate their girls and then he tells them that they enjoy honeymoon with their brothers. Thus they are being ill treated. 495 Const. (S.T.) (U.P.) order (Amend.)Bill (Amend of schedule) by Shri Bhagwan Shankar Rawat

THE MINISTER OF STATE IN THE MINISTRY OF INDUSTRY (DEPARTMENT OF INDUSTRIAL DEVELOPMENT) (SHRIMATI KRISHNA SAHI): Mr.Chairman, Sir`, I am on a point of order. These words should not go on record., The girls study there. It is an institution. If such incidents take place there. he may submit it in writing on which inquiry may be conducted.

But it does not seem proper to say such things for women and girls in this House. The Government will inquire into the matter. (Interruptions)

SHRI PREM CHAND RAM: I am telling about the incident that has occured there (Interruptions)

SHRI RAJESH KUMAR (Gaya): Sir, he has expressed his concern over that incident. He will give it in writing. But the hon. Member has expressed his worry on the present plight of harijans and advasis in the country., He will give in writing, if the hon. Minister likes.